Curse

Nuva · Dec 31, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

I am bored out of my mind at not playing with REAL people in a ONLINE MULTIPLAYER game.

I'm so happy that my guildies actually play the game with me!

/nosigned

Gustin · Dec 31, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

It's annoying and a pain to try and get a group for a mission these days. But it is still possible. 7 Hero's would make this idea of grouping null and void.

/notsigned

Kai Nui · Dec 31, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

I don't believe there should have to be a social aspect the game, a lot of games aren't multiplayer games and I know when I bought Guild Wars there were two things: Option to play by yourself (yes this was actually advertised) and a game based on player skill, not time spent grinding. Although we've gotten away from that in some aspects, I'd still like to see 7 heroes simply because if someone wants to do it they should be able to.

If you believe that the game should be played socially, then go ahead and play it that way, and stop forcing your morality upon others. To each his own, jackass.

Vinraith · Dec 31, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuva

I am bored out of my mind at not playing with REAL people in a ONLINE MULTIPLAYER game.

I'm so happy that my guildies actually play the game with me!

/nosigned

Right, because people that don't want to play with you, but are forced to play with you, are going to be great teammates. I don't think you've completely thought through your cunning plan.

This game can be played single player. To many of us, that's part of its appeal. You like to play it with other people. That's fine too. I guarantee that your multiplayer experience will be better with people that want to play multiplayer than it will with people that are playing with you because henchies are dumb as rocks and you're their means of last resort to finishing something.

I can respect the balance arguments against this, but the "no one will group with me" crybabies should go find a game where people have no choice but to play with them and be happy.

ericdanie · Dec 31, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

/signed

Even before Heroes were introduced it was already fairly hard to make a group for something that is not related to quick money gain or quick storyline play.

Party Search only works for the current outpost you're within, so it's pretty useless for me and a lot of others who are interested in playing in more than one outpost, as long as there is a group.

I don't hate playing with people, I hate the time I have to waste in order to find a group, to find myself alone again because the group may have died quicker than the form time.

I like WoW's, Dungeon Runner's, CoH/CoV's, DDO's and many other games resources for party formation, as they won't require you to be standing idle waiting for the group to be formed as in staying on the town idle.

Gustin · Dec 31, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

You people are making it sound like the game is impossible to do with henchies. To be honest a lot of the quests and missions I've done with 3 heros and 4 henchmen. It's not hard. And who takes Mehnlo anyways? Dunkoro + protector henchie = no problem. With 7 henchies could you imagine ToA? People would just go into FoW by themselves with heros all day. And it would be completely possible. Stop acting like you can't play the way it is. You still have the option to play by yourself and it's not a huge hinderence or anything.

Nuva · Dec 31, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Right, because people that don't want to play with you, but are forced to play with you, are going to be great teammates. I don't think you've completely thought through your cunning plan.

This game can be played single player. To many of us, that's part of its appeal. You like to play it with other people. That's fine too. I guarantee that your multiplayer experience will be better with people that want to play multiplayer than it will with people that are playing with you because henchies are dumb as rocks and you're their means of last resort to finishing something.

I can respect the balance arguments against this, but the "no one will group with me" crybabies should go find a game where people have no choice but to play with them and be happy.

Don't tell me about being a "Group" crybaby.

I went through Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall almost 3/4 of the way with henchies (And only 1 misson in Elona I had to do was with guildies).
About 4-6 missons so far, I've only done it with people, usually my guildies because I ask them nicely. Hey, I can beat the game if I want to, but don't call me a "Group" crybaby, it just gets VERY old and repetative when you need to rely on AI to back you up.

THat's all I'm saying, honestly.

Yes, its fun the first time you go through it.
The next 3 times you go through it with pure AI just makes it dull.

Still /notsigned

Edit: Wouldn't the game be pretty easy if you relied on the heros? I mean, we already have 2 necromancers that take up the MM's job without any trouble, we have a pertty good paragon that can pretty much perform alot of builds. I'm just saying, the game gets easier and easier as we rely on AI.

Vinraith · Dec 31, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Edit: Wouldn't the game be pretty easy if you relied on the heros? I mean, we already have 2 necromancers that take up the MM's job without any trouble, we have a pertty good paragon that can pretty much perform alot of builds. I'm just saying, the game gets easier and easier as we rely on AI.

To me that's the far more compelling argument. Some kind of abbreviated henchmen skill control (and no weapon/rune customization for them) might be better. Regardless, the balance discussion in this thread has swayed me to alter my first post in this thread.

Antheus · Dec 31, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Heroes are the end of any hope for PvE, and have hurt PvP more than many expected.

By introducing heroes, all PvE, with exception of elite areas is simply too trivial. Of course, it can't be made harder, more challenging, or more diverse, since heroes are too stupid to do anything beyond spamming their skills. So any kind of positioning, splitting the teams, or any kind of advanced concept beyond echo nuking is simply too much for them.

As such, they have sealed the faith of future. Look at DoA.

GW chapter 4 might as well release as single player, with chat room, or better yet, by integrating one of useful IM solutions, MSN, x-fire or something like that.

But as of NF release, there simply is no reason to group anymore, there's no benefit to it, and will, for most part, only hurt you. The PvE content is by far too easy to play with other players who would be so inclined, negating even the need for guilds.

What CH. 4 will do for that remains to be seen, but I wouldn't keep my hopes up. By then, most players will have their heroes fully equipped, access to all the useful skills, and group templates figured out.

These builds will of course not be based on good practices, but on what heroes can use. And this set is in complete opposite of some of the best practices.

This isn't really the question of whether heroes are next best thing after sliced bread - they aren't - but since content is and will be scaled for them, that's the future.

HA was for most part ruined, HvH is a complete joke, and heroes are seeing a lot of action even in the last stand for PvP - the GvG.

While at first sight this may seem like a minor issue, the population has drastically changed. And Ch. 4 generation will be much different. Existing players with no multiplayer experience whatsoever ("What does LFG mean?" - some guy in Realm of Torrent last week), they will be completely unfamiliar with even the most basic build concepts, and they will dictate the future content - they are the future market.

But GW is at this point only barely holding on the bring of being multi-player. And with no upcoming incentive in that direction, adding 7 heroes might as well be the right way to go about it. There really is no more reason to play with others - if for one reason only - heroes don't lag.

GW has taken a turn, and you can expect to see a complete turn for the NPC gameplay in the future - and it will strongly affect the Ch. 4 content.

Relnor · Dec 31, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

I had to shovel through a lot of B.S. when reading through this thread. It seems to me that a good number of people feel that Heroes ruined PUGs. Wrong. Guilds ruined PUGs. Why don't we just remove the guild system, and the friends list while we are at it, thus forcing everyone to PUG. Would that satisfy you? Face it: why would I want to PUG if I already have a good friend base and a large guild? I remember the days past of PUGing; failing simple missions 15 times in a row because I joined a group of people that all thought they had the answer.

So I do missions/quests with guildies. Each person can change his or her skills to suit the overall team. If I decide to play alone, why do I loose this option of group customization?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

I don't believe there should have to be a social aspect the game, a lot of games aren't multiplayer games and I know when I bought Guild Wars there were two things: Option to play by yourself (yes this was actually advertised) and a game based on player skill, not time spent grinding. Although we've gotten away from that in some aspects, I'd still like to see 7 heroes simply because if someone wants to do it they should be able to.

If you believe that the game should be played socially, then go ahead and play it that way, and stop forcing your morality upon others. To each his own, jackass.

Amen.

/signed

Coloneh · Dec 31, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

/signed

iv been stuck on nundu bay for a week with the amazingly awful PUGs

rohara · Dec 31, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

/signed

why the heck not. i think part of GW's charm is in the fact that you can play it all by yourself and not be at a major disadvantage (in most cases), unlike games like WoW which require you to be in a massive guild to even stand a chance at accessing the advanced parts of the game.

i have an odd schedule which leaves me playing mostly in the very late hours of the night, when getting a PUG is very hard and getting a good PUG is damn near impossible. if i can't take my guildies/alliance with me, i just take heroes/hench. very rarely do i bother with PUGs anymore, simply because they can be frustrating and waste my time.

so that's my preference. however, i can't tell you how many times i've muttered the words "%#!@& noob henchmen!" as the monk hench spends more time wanding the baddies than healing the party. hench can get the job done, but heroes are infinitely better. hench are a thing of the past with the release of nightfall, and imo, we should be allowed to fill our party with heroes if we so desire for PvE.

won't happen, but here's to hoping

anarion · Dec 31, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

HA was for most part ruined, HvH is a complete joke, and heroes are seeing a lot of action even in the last stand for PvP - the GvG.

the kneejerk reaction to change to 6v6 hurt HA more than anything and to their credit, they did place a limit on the number of heroes.

HvH has potential to be improved, currently in a mess because of '/roll'ers and map issues

as for GvG? i don't see heroes ever becoming a problem for high-end GvG unless the AI is improved very significantly and able to think on the fly (ie. programmed to have responses to every single situation, impossible at this time). if newbie guilds want to test the waters with heroes, it's not a problem. or if guilds, in the off-season want to have fun with heroes, not a problem either.

if you were to say, heroes are the death of the PUG rather than death of PvE, you might be accurate.
but then you'd have to place the blame where it belongs, on the incompetence of the average GW player.

7 heroes for a PvE party, why not? it'd significantly improve my PvE experience and i'd spend less time re-doing quests and missions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

they will be completely unfamiliar with even the most basic build concepts

so then they'd have to come up with their own builds to succeed instead of replicating builds?

Kong · Dec 31, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

If you believe that the game should be played socially, then go ahead and play it that way, and stop forcing your morality upon others. To each his own, jackass.

I'm going to really have to stop replying and giving my two cents in some of these posts. There really is no point when no one reads what you've said, and the ones that do ignore what you're reading because they automatically take offence to it

Person A: I like apples
Person B: I like oranges, apples are nice once in a while
Person A: *Shoots person B*

Kai Nui, you are such a person. This is the second suggestion in a matter of days you've started where when someone disagrees with you you insult them. You have to learn to take criticism better

The game the way it is now, and the way it was before Heroes were added, does not force anyone to play socially with real people in thier party (in PvE). The only, and I mean the ONLY, real arguement that could be made about not wanting to use the Henchmen, is that they are limited in thier skill sets and as a result you are limited in your party formation to that extent.

If they increase the liimt on how many heroes (of their own) a player can have in thier party, then so be it. People will use it, as I will to. Why have a henchman in the group that you can not customize when you can put a customized hero in it's place.

But because you all (aside from a few) are arguing that they should increase the limit because playing in pugs is slow and annoying at times... it's just not convincing enough and is not needed for the simple fact that you have the henchmen to use.

MercenaryKnight · Dec 31, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

This should be implemented into the game. I know everyone says it'll make pve too simple and easy. But it's not like you can micromanage each hero. Also, it'll stop all the leavers and what not from making you have to re-do an entire mission because they rage quit.

In my own opinion, it can't hurt anything and would just improve every thing. It can't hurt pugs any because the people who don't want to pug won't. It won't hurt the people who do want to use it because they still can't micromanage every single hero and skill.

Basically, theres no reason to not have it in the game and every reason to allow atleast more heroes, not even saying allow 7. But it would be nice to have more then 3.

Kcp · Dec 31, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

/signed

I enjoy decking out every single one of my heroes for every character. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to use all our heroes to fill a party. The majority of towns are dead anyways.

Every chapter they'll up the Hero limit, wanna bet? It's what I'd do to guarantee more sales.

Antheus · Dec 31, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by anarion

so then they'd have to come up with their own builds to succeed instead of replicating builds?

This statement holds more truth than you'd get credit for.

Is it hard to play with other players in PUGs? No. Not at all. It just takes the most basic social skills.
*looks at this thread*

What about DoA? Where is the good build? Ah - the holy trinity works.

No, players will never adapt. And with no knowledge sharing and community participation, they'll demand in a hissy fit for content to be nerfed. Nobody with exception of perhaps dozens of players asked about strategies for DoA - they asked for nerf, nothing more, nothing less.

Funny fact: Why is almost every 3rd post in this thread calling someone a jerk, an idiot or something similar? Why all the insults in an idea suggestion thread? Why the explosive temper?

Anet will give players what they want. They need to. Pandora's box is open. And it doesn't contain multiplayer content.

Servant of Kali · Dec 31, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

First off, lyra_song said "/notsigned". She didn't say "yes." No clue how you interpred that.

Ah sorry then i assumed you're complaining about people who said yes but didnt clarify.
If lyra_song said just "no" there's really no need for me to type the same reply to everyone.

Quote:

there are no right or wrong "answers!" THAT'S WHY IT'S A FORUM!

Then how come you're above statement is WRONG? Obviously there is right and wrong. Just because something is forum and open to discussion doesnt mean it's all always 100% oppinion.

Until you beat my arguments in a sane way, you're WRONG.

Quote:

If someone disagrees with you, they are automatically wrong?!

If im right, and they disagree, yes they are automatically wrong. Who says otherwise has problems with logic

And if im not right (happens), but someone didnt argument his/her point of view, then there's not much contribution to the discussion is it.

Quote:

Then what the heck is the point of this thread!?

The point is for everyone to type /signed or not type anything at all. So ANet sees the thread and makes the change.

Or what, you thought im into democracy? Not really..

Quote:

Well, here's some news: if we had access to 7 Heroes, there would be no more parties. Period.

Well, here's news: If Zingeri took 5min to think his points of view, we would not have silly posts with silly "arguments".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grais

Guess I missed the " Servant of Kali rules for engagment "sticky that must be posted. I'll go look for it now.

Yes please do, it would make my posting much eaiser.

Rules for Engagement by Kali:
1) Posts have to be argumented
2) Posts have to be logically flawless
3) Posts have to pass reality check
4) Poster has to reread his posts, and must not be on drugs while posting
5) Posts cannot repeat like a parrot the previous statements of the poster, without counter-argumenting what the other guy said. Posts cannot repeat the non-argumented points of view which others wrote.

There. This is needed for a minimum of debate. Unfortunately the amount of people who typed /notsigned and who meet these requirements is 1, maximally, in this thread.

And, have you like completely missed the fact that people who typed /signed appear to be more mature and type more logically reasonable posts than those who typed /notsigned and their posts come down to arguments such as "no one wants to play with me, booohoo" and "dad, force them to play with me".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Right, because people that don't want to play with you, but are forced to play with you, are going to be great teammates. I don't think you've completely thought through your cunning plan.

*agrees*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

and have hurt PvP more than many expected.

Dude, do you understand that im a PvPer more than PvEr, and that we PvPers DONT WANT TO have any henchies or heroes in PvP. It's PvErs who want henchies n heroes in PvP!!

PvE is different, you play against AI, not against other people. Therefore you can choose to play with heroes, or with other people. Simple.

Sorry but, using the same logic, you're saying people should be forced to PvP, and if they dont PvP they should lose something per week they dont PvP at all. How bout that, ha? How bout we PvPers FORCE PvErs to PvP? Would you like that?

Dont tell me how to play the game. Im not telling YOU how to play the game.

Quote:

By introducing heroes, all PvE, with exception of elite areas is simply too trivial

wow no way! PvE has been trivial to me for ages already, have you completely missed the point that thousands upon thousands do PvE with a coke in one hand and sandwitch in another? I did Nightfall in what, 3-4 days since release and finished it, i didnt even play whole day ofc. I was passing most missions on the first attempt, didnt even know what to expect there.

So, i have a newsflash for you, PvE is piece of cake for me, YET i still play it. Amazing isnt it?

Tic-tac-toe is easy and people STILL play it. Geez.

Quote:

But as of NF release, there simply is no reason to group anymore, there's no benefit to it

Welcome to 21st century. There was no reason to group before either, zillion of players didnt, in case you didnt notice. All missions can he henched, to my knowledge. At least all Prophecy missions could (afaik) and STILL people played it. How do you explain that?

There was never a benefit for grouping; for me, it always meant that mission might fail, that there might be griefers in the team etc. But i still PUG. And tons of other people do as well.

Reality check says hi.

Quote:

Funny fact: Why is almost every 3rd post in this thread calling someone a jerk, an idiot or something similar?

Because there's a name for a person who says stuff which:
a) doesnt pass reality check and is based on urban myths
b) is logically flawed
c) has not been argumented properly, and PROs and CONs have not been weighted
d) defies common sense
e) is selfish, and completely ignores that there are other human beings with their own free will (hint: do i force people not to farm, just because i dont like it, or, do i force people to pvp just because i like it?)

Angelica · Dec 31, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

/signed.

PS - For the people who don't like to have 7 heroes ........ You can always not use them and get a PUG/henchies or whatever you like.

Antheus · Dec 31, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustin

You people are making it sound like the game is impossible to do with henchies. To be honest a lot of the quests and missions I've done with 3 heros and 4 henchmen. It's not hard. And who takes Mehnlo anyways? Dunkoro + protector henchie = no problem. With 7 henchies could you imagine ToA? People would just go into FoW by themselves with heros all day. And it would be completely possible. Stop acting like you can't play the way it is. You still have the option to play by yourself and it's not a huge hinderence or anything.

Just as a counter point - I always take henchie healers, Mhenlo and the Kirin (or something) dude. The hero builds I use pack so much killing power and so much defense, that healing is just a boring task that Mhenlo can handle one in a while.

I've found personally that using 2 hero spots on healers is a complete waste, since henchie healers are much better than henchie damage dealers, so it's better to replace the weaker members. And I even stopped using MM hero.

The only place where I do use a hero healer, is for last two NF missions, since I give them better skills than what they use. For everything else, they are redundant.